Dancing in the Dark, Pt. 2
Whew. Ya’ll showed UP for the first installment of this conversation. I did not expect it to resonate and cause some of the most beautiful comments and conversations. Some years ago, I wrote a piece that was/is near and dear to me that I called “The Beautiful Cord Surrounding Black Men.” That written piece came to me as I considered the preciousness of the bonds that I had been making with Black men. How we were surrounded by story after story of Black men’s lives being cut short through police brutality and other preventable factors. How we have been portrayed over and over again as being hateful and domineering. There is a beautiful cord that binds us as Black men together. I wish many could see and experience it. I know Black men who are so extraordinarily expansive. Doing good work in the world and divesting from toxic legacies. is one of those people, and I can’t believe I get the opportunity to be friends with him. I had nervously wanted to ask him about doing something together, but had chickened out many times. Here we are though. Enjoy Part 2.
TUESDAY 9PM JUNE 12, 2024
ROBERT: I know we’re talking about the collective, but to return to the individual—I don't know if you got to see the video, but there's this viral video of what I assume is an older Black woman stopping Black men in the grocery store. I saw it on Threads. And she’s complimenting them. And each one giggles like a little schoolboy. I just saw the beauty of Black men. Like, the first guy put his hands over his face. He was shy about it. But it was so cool to see Black men just smiling. Every single person. I've rewatched that video several hundred times.
And I guess my question is twofold: (1) What are your thoughts on the video?, and (2) Have you always been how you are now? Because I experience you as a pretty loving person, someone who’s pretty open emotionally. Have you always been that way?
ALEX: I haven’t seen the video. I gotta watch it. But I’m a big music fan. And one of my favorite artists is Tyler, the Creator. There are a few different Tyler performances and interviews I’ve seen where someone will either shout him out or compliment him, and his response is always to start feeling himself. Like, keep it coming. I admire that so much.
We were talking about it recently, but we get shy about compliments. I had an instance in high school where a girl that I had a crush on essentially told me that I was cocky. And that, to me, was a negative thing. I was like, I need to make sure that I'm not that. I was unpacking some of that with my therapist recently. And she asked ‘Why was that a negative thing for you?’ And it really got me processing. When those moments do happen where somebody is complimenting me or speaking life, I feel this hesitation to respond eagerly to it because I don’t want to be seen as full of myself. But when I see Tyler feeling himself, I love that. I want more of that.
When you ask if I’ve always been this way, I think about middle school and high school as times in my life where I really wanted to be accepted. I feel like those were some of the more malleable times in my life where I adapted to whoever was around me. Once I got to college and beyond, finding people I relate to helped give me more permission to be me.
And in that process of trying to find myself, especially early on, there are definitely instances where I hurt people. And I think that's something that’s present no matter how much you evolve. But I think becoming more cognizant of that helped me think about people who get left out and the people who oftentimes receive the brunt of the harm.
ROBERT: Man, you have a beautiful heart. Truly, I mean that. And I feel like it is a journey, right? Especially if you're a boy, you learn how to be cruel during the years that you need to be cruel. I hate that, but it’s the truth unless you're gonna be the one getting beat up. I feel like that's why I use the word soft in conjunction with men a lot. Because it's my subversive way of flipping that non-emotional posturing we’ve been taught as manhood. I grew up in Chicago, so soft is the worst thing you can call somebody who’s a man. But all the things that were in that soft arena, I like those.
ROBERT: I see all these things about masculinity and manhood. I just saw something the other week where this woman was saying, ‘Why are you, as a man, trying on clothes in a fitting room? You don't know your size?’ And she was dead serious.
Photo Credit: Instagram: @ bridgettleecreative
ALEX: There's so much that we miss that way. And, you know, even in terms of just emotions themselves, there's so much of who we are that gets lost when we're not engaging that emotional part of ourselves. Yeah, I've definitely had to learn to kind of be more, be more open.
ROBERT: Man, all these things that tug at our communities, these neverending Gender Wars on social media. People are like “real men don't drink fruity drinks.” WELL I GUESS I’M NOT A REAL MAN THEN! Real men to me are emotional. Real men read books. Real men do all of those things that get relegated as soft.
ALEX: Yeah, I mean, so much of that seems like the goalposts are constantly moving. There's this interview I am thinking of. The podcast is called Internet People Live, and in one episode there is an interview with Zack Fox, who's Tariq on Abbott Elementary (a comedy that follows the lives of teachers in the Philadelphia school system) , and Earl Sweatshirt, who used to be in Odd Future. And it's satirical, but like the first 15, 20 minutes of the podcast. Earl says something to the effect of like, “Yo, I'm trying to be on my like, real, like toxic masculinity shit.” And then like, they start going on this thing, where like, literally every line becomes a “Yo as a man, why are you XYZ?” They're playing into just how ridiculous those lines of thinking get. And I see a lot of those too on Twitter or whatnot. Yo, are you serious right now?
ROBERT: WHEW! We are in the…
ALEX: I remember, in college, I was in this Black men in America class. And I remember learning about the cool pose. And for folks who don't know, it's sort of this protective thing/posture. I'm not going to show emotion. I'm going to do all the things, particularly within Black urban communities, the things that are going to get me respect. Because, in a white supremacist world, that's something that I don't have. And so at least in this pocket of my world, I can gain some kind of respect. So to your earlier point of being feminine and how it is portrayed, as much as I understand it, it saddens me. I think about one of my homies, Koku, the silliest, and the sweetest dude. Every weekend, he likes baking something new. His fashion is always impeccable. He's so playful with it. Wearing bell bottoms and different things. Men, we are missing out on all this joy.
ROBERT: And I feel the way of traditional masculinity, that non emotional manhood, is wack and leads to nowhere. I think when I started to go on this journey, to be the person I am now, I have experienced a lot of freedom. Yo, there is so much out there, whether that's in things that men can enjoy and the things that men can be in the world. Right?
ROBERT: I think of my Instagram feed. And just the way that my algorithm is set up. I see Black men playing piano, a lot of black men tending plants. Comedians. Gymnasts. I just see a lot of dope examples.
ALEX: When you asked that question earlier if I’ve always been this way? Actually. Yeah. I remember all throughout elementary school just drawing. And so much of the different things that I was drawing were me and my best friend…having us together in these pictures. A lot of what I would call growth over the past couple of years has really been coming home to myself. Coming home to that younger version of me.
ROBERT: Oh, we got to do more of these. You’re a dope person to be in conversation with…and you penciled me into your calendar! I will…contact your secretary.
List of Generative Black Men:
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I absolutely loved this series. It makes me think of the people who have had the greatest influence of my views on masculinity — my dad and his brother, mostly — and they’re soft as water. And I’m cautious around anyone different. Now I’m thinking about what makes them so, and how we can leave more space for that. Thanks for this conversation.
I can almost hear the intonation and laughter in this conversation! Thank you for the Substack recommendations, too. There are many I adore and some y’all have introduced me to with this post.